Find our Sentientist Conversation here on the Sentientism YouTube and here on the Sentientism Podcast.

Jackie is a former dairy & beef farmer turned full-time animal rights advocate. She is head of communications and a founding board member for the global non-profit, VeganFTA (For The Animals). She co-hosts their podcast and live shows. Jackie is also an author and public speaker.

In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “what matters?”

Sentientism is “evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” The audio is also on our Podcast here on Apple & here everywhere else.

We discuss:
00:00 Welcome

• Jordi Casamitjana as a "vegan godfather" 🙂

02:28 Jackie's Intro

• From beef & dairy farming to animal advocacy & veganism
• Undercover investigator Erin Wing

04:20 What's Real?

• Growing up in a UK village in the 1970's
• Naturalist Gilbert White "England's first ecologist?"
• Christian community & school "If you're good to go to heaven & if you're bad Satan's going to get you"… "Nobody ever questioned it"
• Fitting in & FOMO "everybody went to church on Sunday"
• Joining the church choir, but not being religious
• Losing son Luke at 2 days old
• "If god loves us all… how are all these bad things happening?"
• "Any shred of belief I ever had… just went straight out the window"
• Spirituality? Unexplained things… a clock starting without batteries… "things happening for a reason?"
• "Maybe there's something greater out there… not god"
• Exploring Buddhism after going vegan "All you have to do is just be kind"
• Meditation & Yoga
• "There is such synergy between veganism & Buddhism"

30:38 What Matters?

• Good: "Not being mean… not killing" vs. god compliance
• "I don't think there is a hell…" except for what we do to non-human animals
• Sons coming home from Xtian school saying "god's going to strike me down!"
• Being most authentic & open at times when "I had nothing"
• Buddhism "has taught me not to judge other people… I get a lot of peace from it… being kind."
• "Being compassionate towards yourself is the hardest thing to do"
• Dairy farming: "What they are doing is evil… but you can't write them off as being evil"
• "Everyone's got a reason for being the way that they are"

41:50 Who Matters?

• Killing a spider, terrified, at 8 yrs old, then feeling "mortified that I had ended that life… that's never left me"
• Husband Gareth carries a card to rescue bees
• IWAF leaflet about seal culling
• Going vegetarian in 1987 after a Viva factory farming campaign
• "I couldn't believe humans could be so cruel"
• Father loving nature but going shooting, being attacked by animal activists
• Doing school presentations about animal rights "I couldn't understand why my friends weren't doing the same"
• Running off with the local Kiwi barman at 19 yrs old to NZ cow farming country
• "Dairy farming was the ultimate career for a person in New Zealand"
• Learning to milk cows
• Being lactose intolerant
• Seeing a baby calf being bottle fed, with the mother on the other side of the yard… "I'm going to knock it on the head after"… "begging the farmer to let me keep her… she was my friend"
• Uneconomic calves being killed at 4 days old
• "Things just got buried… I ended up being in the industry for 18 years… I would always cry"
• "Yes we know it's sad, but it's how it is"
• "I never saw a happy dairy farmer… ever"
• "You don't get the time to connect with an animal"
• Hating separating calves from their mothers
• Even having lost a son "I still didn't make that deep, deep connection that this is what we were doing to cows"
• A 16 year old "pet" cow, Tilly, who had 14 babies taken away from her
• "I never made the connection between dairy & death… but it's so much worse"
• Leaving the marriage & the industry
• Being broke, growing own food, meeting Gareth
• Living in a van, a vegan FB friend sharing info about farrowing crates, going vegan "I can never be part of anything like that again"

01:13:40 A Better Future?

• CAFOs and "family" / "humane" farms "The same things still happen"
• SAFE, VeganFTA
• Receiving death threats
• Building bridges with farmers "They're also victims"
• Milked documentary
• Farmers transitioning. Many want a way out
• "Vegans don't see farmers as the humans they are"
• "We're so focused on the animals that we're not always focused on the solutions"
• Resisting oppresssion of humans too
• Religion & animals
• "Never underestimate your influence!"
• "Everything that arises also ends… the suffering will end."

Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info.

Join our “I’m a Sentientist” wall using this simple form.

Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on Facebook.

Thanks Graham for the post-production.

Find our Sentientist Conversation here on the Sentientism YouTube and here on the Sentientism Podcast. Don't forget to subscribe and share!

Lisa is an activist and academic who specialises in anymal & environmental ethics. She was an associate professor of philosophy & religion at Montana State University Billings until she retired in 2020 to found & lead the educational, vegan umbrella organization, Tapestry. Lisa is the author or editor of ten books including "Animals & World Religions". She has written over 100 articles & book chapters. Lisa coined the term anymal as a "correct" term for non-human animals.

In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “what matters?”

Sentientism is “evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” The audio is also on our Podcast here on Apple & here everywhere else.

We discuss:
00:00 Welcome

01:28 Lisa's Intro

01:58 What's Real?

• Linking epistemology & ethics
• "My mind sees a continuum"
• Being born with "a more eastern way of thinking"
• Metaphysical & practical concerns
• "I don't tend to use philosophy in an abstract way"
• "I have very little faith in human reasoning… we are not rational beings."
• Descartes reasoning that anymals aren't sentient
• "We cannot trust our reason… that doesn't mean reason's out… we need to do it with humility"
• "It's the extent of our power that makes our arrogance dangerous"
• "Roe vs Wade was just overturned… don't tell me humans are rational."
• "Trump's reality… I don't want to know about that"
• The USA: "Democracy requires education & we're not an educated public"
• "Our reason is flawed… we need to use it… we have to be sceptical"

11:53 What Matters?

• "Cultures & people - that's where you have to work"
• "To try to bring change I need to work with humans where they're at"
• "I can see the beauty in it… and I can see the problems in it"
• "Cruelty is not a good thing… compassion is a good thing… fairly universal"
• "I love religions… they have a committed strong belief… I can get a hold of it"
• "I have never, never talked to a serious Christian, & had them, after a serious conversation, say 'it's OK, what we're doing with anymals'… an atheist? - whole different picture."
• Fowler's stages of religion "I was there (stage 6) in my teens"
• "These religions are rock solid in teaching the core ethic… of compassion"
• Wild animal suffering & hell as challenges to a benevolent god
• "Western faiths tend to be very rigid…" Eastern faiths are more pluralistic/flexible?
• Compassion / empathy as central to Lisa's family's ethics
• "When you live in a community you can't tolerate cruelty"
• Rights theory, virtue ethics ("bravery can be stupid or it can be good")
• Reciprocity
• Consistency, practicality, flexibility

29:21 Who Matters?

• Moral scope. Who gets to be in our community?
• Father saving worms from the pavement
• Moral luck & privilege
• "I always found humans to be mean" whereas "my family were honest & not cruel"
• "I grew up on meat"
• Sister talking about PETA literature
• Going vegetarian then vegan in the 1980's "it wasn't like now… there was no reasonable milk… I just did without."
• "I stopped eating what she [mother] had cooked… I know that was hard for her"
• Dad: "You kids saved my life by changing my life"
• "Normal is normal… we all grow up in our little bubbles."
• "I was very much on my own path… I didn't have to worry about what anyone else thought."
• Travelling
• A fascination with religion from a v.early age
• Bio/ecocentrism "Have regard for everything… why wouldn't we?"
• "I am going to work on this situation"
• "Philosophy goes wrong when it runs off… the ivory tower stuff"
• "Why would I argue between the gnat & the grass when there is a veal calf right here that is dying"
• "That human being is hungry & that veal calf is going to be slaughtered because we have collectively failed in our compassion"
• "Everything is harmed by the fact that we're taking up space"

49:10 A Better Future?

• Do the religious or atheists have the clearest path to universal compassion?
• "No religious person will say 'I don't care'"
• Humanism & anymals? … "You're going to have better luck with religious people"
• "Most people have some religion… most religons feel very strongly about cruelty." It's a mistake for animal activists to reject the religious
• "You have to be educated about religions to talk to people inside religions"
• "Every religion teaches compassion, humility & at the centre is not humanity, it is either a god… or your ultimate journey… all of that points to vegan"
• "All religions have… a core idea that it is best not to be eating anymals"
• Genesis: “I give you the plants & the seeds to eat”… "We were given a vegan diet by god"
• “The earth is ruined by humanity”
• “Should we try to eat the beauty of that original Eden… which was peaceful & compassionate”
• “On earth as it is in heaven!”
• “These teachings are so beautiful – did you ever notice them… wouldn’t you like to practice them?”
• “In the Eastern tradition the ideal is not to harm… the Jewish/Christian/Islamic tradition is to love… which is stronger!”
• “Helping people to work inside their own traditions… that’s better”
• “Everything about us is dualistic… but that isn’t the way the world is”
• “You either have compassion or you don’t… once you start having compassion, why would you only have it for your family… it’s not a zero sum game… it’s a boundless capacity… [although] we’re limited in our energy.”
• “What I ask is that anymal activists not feed into racism, not feed into sexism… and similarly, that those working to end poverty don’t feed animal products to hungry people and that those working for the environment don’t themselves consume anymals & anymal products… quit working against each other”
• “They [social justice issues] are all connected”
• Emotional motivations “not from a mind point of view but from a heart point of view”
• “I’ll engage with anyone that gets near me”

Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info.

Join our “I’m a Sentientist” wall using this simple form.

Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on Facebook.

Thanks Graham for the post-production.

Find our Sentientist Conversation here on the Sentientism YouTube and here on the Sentientism Podcast. Don’t forget to subscribe!

Philip is a writer from Aotearoa New Zealand, of Pākehā (NZ European) and Māori (Ngāi Tahu) descent. He is a PhD candidate at the University of Sydney, affiliated with the Sydney Environment Institute. He holds a Master of Arts in Philosophy from The University of Auckland & diplomas in te reo Māori (the Māori language) from Te Wānanga o Aotearoa. Philip has written for publications such as the Guardian, Newsroom, & Takahē. His book, Love Notes: for a Politics of Love, is published in New York by Lantern Books. In 2018, he co-organised ‘The Politics of Love: A Conference’ at All Souls College, Oxford. Philip was also kaiwhakatipu (editor) of He Ika Haehae Kupenga.

In Sentientist Conversations we talk about the two most important questions: “what’s real?” & “what matters?”

Sentientism is “evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” The audio is on our Podcast here on Apple & here everywhere else.

We discuss:
00:00 Welcome

01:54 Philip's Intro

• Writing on animals, Maori issues & "The Politics of Love"

03:10 What's Real?

• Neither parent very religious so grew up agnostic?
• Anglican Christian high school
• Sermons talked more about love than god
• Confirmed at 14 yrs… "ridiculous… what do 14 yr olds know?"
• "A lot of the metaphysical background was smuggled in"
• Anglicanism to comparative religion to philosophy
• Turning from metaphysical to normative/ethics/politics
• "The final nature of reality is unknowable to us & we just have to proceed on our senses"
• Albert Camus
• The risk of being distracted by esoteric philosophical questions… instead "We need to be engaged in work that tried to bring about a better world in the light of obvious suffering"
• "I do believe there is something transcendent that is true… spiritual… love"
• "Communing with the spiritual… but through a critical filter"
• "Prophets of love… Martin Luther King Jr & Te Whiti O Rongomai"
• God, purpose, meaning, spirit, love… "Our attempts to name it… project our own interpretations on to it… prevent us from fully understanding…"
• Ethical risks from religious or spiritual epistemologies (unchallengeable, unknowable, incommunicable, obedience, higher purposes, constrained/conditional compassion)
• Old, new testaments, "what would the next step be?… Something like love?… a more mature ethical outlook."
• Is something missing from a purely naturalistic ethics? "Not necessarily… we should & can find reasons for acting in a loving way independently from this spirituality I have described."

26:30 What Matters?

• "I understand ethics in relation to love & relationship"
• Constructing & affirming the morality we want to see in the world
• "We are living in an absurd world… we need to determine & assert our own values… try to act lovingly"
• "The Politics of Love"
• A communal house as a metaphor "something we create in which to live"
• "The challenge is to ensure that our ethics & politics has philosophical strength… we do that with tools like reason & critical thinking"
• "Our ethics & politics will be less coherent, less robust… if we only recognise that human beings are sentient"
• Black, indigenous & feminist theory
• "Our anti-racism is undermined if we're not also anti-sexist"
• "We can't unpick one [oppression] without unpicking the others"

37:44 Who Matters?

• In 2015 The Politics of Love hardly mentioned non-human animals… "since then my heart has opened, or re-opened, to non-human animals & the rest of nature"
• Beyond sentience… the "more than human world"
• "Who matters? Everyone & everything."
• "Sentience needs to be taken into account morally"
• Risks of instrumentalism re: non-sentient entities?
• Is the notion of sentience tethered to the human?
• Interests, relationships
• "The environmental movement… has overlooked the sentience of non-human animals"
• "I'm not convinced that value comes from sentience"

57:13 A Better Future?

• The Politics of Love
• Choosing optimism
• Personal interactions to govt. policy
• "I understand love as being intellectual & emotional"
• bell hooks "work as central to love"
• "Anything short of love isn't going to be enough"
• "Love is not scarce & it's not limited. We can have more of it simply by choosing it"
• Veganism & decarceration as examples of a loving politics
• "Collective action always boils down to individual action"
• "We cannot effect any change unless we effect that change in ourselves"
• Pluralism, mutuality, honesty, intersectionality: "It's going to look different in different places"
• When cultural values clash with a Politics of Love
• "I don't think indigenous cultures should be engaged with uncritically"
• He Ika Haehae Kupenga, "The fish who tears the net"… as a Maori vegan
• "It's harder to do it with love when it's coming from without"
• "That idea that indigenous cultures… should be preserved and are relics of the past is a patronising idea… a colonial idea"
• Criticism as a sign of love & respect (Jennifer C Nash)

Sentientism is “Evidence, reason & compassion for all sentient beings.” More at Sentientism.info.

Join our “I’m a Sentientist” wall using this simple form.

Everyone, Sentientist or not, is welcome in our groups. The biggest so far is here on Facebook.

Thanks Graham for the post-production.